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Dennis420b's weight class idea.
Forum » Forums » General Discussion
Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
Likes 15
21st May 2015

It is my firm belief that to grow an idea it needs to be inclusive not exclusive. That being said if we put together competitions with little to no attention towards fair and balanced play, many will be put off. So I think we need to consider setting up a bracket system similar to one used by boxing organizations based on weight but using WN8 as the unit of measure. I propose that we have a 5 class system Heavy weight, Cruiser weight, Middle weight, Welter weight and Light weight (names are not important really).

Example for a 7 vs 7 league season:

Each clan would form the team for the desired class the want to compete in that season. Teams would be required to declare these teams before the season starts in advance and not the day of the match(s). So 7 starters and 3 alternates (life happens right?) would constitute team "A" of said clan. The total WN8 of all the members on that team would be added and this is the weight of that team. 
Hypothetical 7 vs 7 class charts (but really any values could be agreed upon):
Heavy weight class   : 25,001 to unlimited total team WN8 (best of the best right?)
Cruiser weight class: 20,001 to 25,000 total team WN8
Middle weight class  : 15,001 to 20,000 total team WN8
Welter weight class  : 10,001 to 15,000 total team WN8
Light weight class     :  Zero to 10,000 total team WN8

Once the team is declared and then assigned a weight class it would fight other teams in the same weight class, thus making for a near fair competition and an inclusive competition set up where multiple clans of varying ability and skill could still compete in a balanced environment. Also all members of clans could be involved rather than just the top players.

That team would then represent its clan in a season competing against other clans in that same weight class.

Additional ideas:
-Only allow each player to be on a limited number of teams (2-3?). This would prevent a clan from over using one player.
-Mandatory play in one set of matches by all members on a team during a season. This would keep clans from taking 7 great players with 3 bad alternates who never play, to make an overpowered team (using the reserve players as a WN8 dump).
-Limit the amount of roster substitutions mid season, and any substitution would have to keep the team within its weight class.

I believe this set up would allow for all clans of all skill levels an opportunity to compete at some level. And of course the larger clans could try and hold as many titles in weight divisions as possible.

Any thoughts?

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Last Edit: 21st May 2015 by dennis420b
Joined: 19th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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21st May 2015

The only way I see this as problematic is with people that pad their scores, either by intentionally bad play, or, such as my case, develop a bad case of "don't care that much itis". Certain player WN8 isn't reflective of their team based ability, but their PUG ability.

So what if a clan is better than another... they don't have to schedule matches with them. Conversely, they could continuously do so in order to get better.

Unless large clans are allowed to field multiple teams, this also limits who they can field (at max 40 +/-) when I'm pretty sure some of us could hypothetically launch more than that. I'd rather it be a standard availability match arrangement, with choices of tiers instead of "we're playing 8s", but that's me.

All in all, the organized match ability of "set a time and we'll show up with 7" has worked from the days of Quake through now, why is it so broken to suggest another strategy? I mean, it is a very well thought out idea that requires better minds than me to verify it, but worked for my ClanBase team taking North America back in the day. We just asked who wanted in and made sure that people rotated.
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Joined: 21st May 2015
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22nd May 2015

I concur that trying to rank especially using broken WN8 will just create more problems.

I was just having a WN8 discussion with friends on another message board.
I have just recently began looking at WN8 so look at my rating.

I have an overall WN8 of 865 so that would put me on a light or welter team.

But what if you looked at my WN8 for last week alone? I have a 2,301
What a difference.

Now I do not know if I will continue to play at 2300+ level but I certainly know that I do not play at a 800 level.

Joined: 13th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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22nd May 2015

the problem is that a lot of our guys join us with average or less wn8 (we want military veterans more then super-unicum players) and we learn them better, their stats will still show average even though they have great or unicum for recent statstics.
our VGC PC counterparts just beat a mostly unicum team with a group of average wn8s using nothing more than map awareness and teamwork.
I am not in favor of using WN8 to set up teams.
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"A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit." - Army preventive maintenance publication

Joined: 21st May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
Likes 1
22nd May 2015

WN8 stats are individual stats this is going to be about teamwork, 7 very good indivdual players who do not play well as a team will get beaten by 7 average players who play well together as a team. How about giving each tier a number ie tier 10 = ten points, tier 9 = nine points, tier 8 = eight points, ect. Then give the teams a max number of points to use as they want, to be divided by 7 tanks in the team, ie give the teams say 50 points they then pick 7 tanks up to the max number of points but not over the max. This would allow players who do not have high tier tanks to play in the teams, plus you could have different class's by changing the number of points allowed to teams in each class.
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Joined: 14th Aug 2014
Rank: Armored Rebellion
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22nd May 2015

My biggest problem with this is you are trying to segregate an already segregated community. We are having trouble getting more then just VGC in here and we can't even do that. People will run their mouths off but they won't bring it to the battlefield. Funny how that works. If you start making weight classes no clan will play any other clan =p.
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Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
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22nd May 2015

Well first off individual WN8 would not place you in a class. It would only apply to that team as a whole. And any clan could field more than one team for a competition in any class. Its not ranking the players.

The whole idea is just to keep WAR/Aces, Immortals, Total Carnage. etc from dominating every competition and give clans that are not super unicum hangouts an opportunity to play against other teams of similar ability for a competition.

There are many clans who are turned off by the idea of competition simply because they dont want to lose every match. Well this is a way for them to be involved in competitions without having to see the same clans over and over being crowned the champions.

Its just an idea, and after the same 3-4 clans win every tournament and competition you might reconsider it.

And after reading many responses I believe you all do not understand what I am saying here. It has nothing to do with tank selection, it has nothing to do with ranking individual players. It only would apply as a team assembled for a competition. Team A has X number of total WN8 so they will fight in X class against other teams with total WN8s in the same class. It has nothing to do with individual ranking.

Joined: 14th Aug 2014
Rank: Armored Rebellion
Likes 13
22nd May 2015

QuoteWell first off individual WN8 would not place you in a class. It would only apply to that team as a whole. And any clan could field more than one team for a competition in any class. Its not ranking the players.

The whole idea is just to keep WAR/Aces, Immortals, Total Carnage. etc from dominating every competition and give clans that are not super unicum hangouts an opportunity to play against other teams of similar ability for a competition.

There are many clans who are turned off by the idea of competition simply because they dont want to lose every match. Well this is a way for them to be involved in competitions without having to see the same clans over and over being crowned the champions.

Its just an idea, and after the same 3-4 clans win every tournament and competition you might reconsider it.

And after reading many responses I believe you all do not understand what I am saying here. It has nothing to do with tank selection, it has nothing to do with ranking individual players. It only would apply as a team assembled for a competition. Team A has X number of total WN8 so they will fight in X class against other teams with total WN8s in the same class. It has nothing to do with individual ranking.
Once again how is a clan supposed to get better if they don't play the better clans?  Also have so few clans to separate them is just plain retarded.  

Its a game, sometimes you stomp and sometimes you get stomped.  Then you go back into the real world where things actually matter.  

...



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Joined: 20th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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22nd May 2015

This is the first clan I've been in so I do not have any experience with weighting systems or "come as you are" type competitions.

That being said, this looks to be still very much a work in progress and far too early to exclude ideas and suggestions from the few of us who have decided to participate in this endeavor. It sounds as if there are barely enough members to run a viable tournament in the first place.

I think we need a "pre season" to try out different ways of doing this. When we find out what works, then a standard can be set.
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Joined: 19th May 2015
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22nd May 2015

What's going to keep teams from stat padding as it is to engage pro level play per weight? Pick two unicum or high tier players, one or two middlings, and a few new guys you're training up.

This defeats the purpose and sets you right back in the groups you're trying to avoid. I think that instead of scaring clans away, they either A:Get better, B:Get used to their rankings in the match lineup, Con't bother with those outside their tier either which way, or Dlayers join a clan based on their rankings.

This is how it's worked since 1995, I honestly think the major problem is that Xbox people tend not to get on PC forums. Just the way the player base is.


Joined: 19th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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22nd May 2015

I'm a big believer in the KISS principle, you know, keep it simple stupid? Plus current WIN8 stats are skewed by several variables including what server you play on, time zone, etc. I propose we use playground fight rules, you and six of your buddies vs. Me and six of mine, May the best team win. Plus I do t believe stats tell the true story of a players ability to move, shoot, and communicate as part of a team.
Last Edit: 22nd May 2015 by VGC isf13
Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
Likes 15
22nd May 2015

This is not really a competition I am putting together, its not affiliated with any other competition, and its not really about anything except trying to offer something for every clan in a structured organized set up.

Its an idea for a future component of an organized league with multiple class titles to win including an unlimited top class that is exactly what you guys are already wanting to do. But also different classes for different levels of player. In fact you dont even have to use WN8 as the standard. You could use virtually any other stat system. The point being to try and make something for every clan and for every level of player in those clans.

Again it would not take anything away from those who just want to go unrestricted, that class is still there. It just makes a couple more competitions for teams that would be composed of teams with a similar total stat (I picked WN8 as this is the community standard) making for an attempt at a fair match every time. Its not perfect and it has nothing to do with individual stats or rankings. You could have a guy with 4,000 WN8 and a guy with 500 WN8 playing on the same team or all guys with similar stats, so long as the total WN8 of all members of the team fall within the desired limits for the class.

If people "stat pad" this system would expose that, as they would be playing in a class they truly dont belong in, and if they dump stats for a competition well they are just stupid.

Again this is not a competition I am setting up, its just something I was throwing out there to see if anyone would like to explore a FUTURE endeavor.

Right now we are in the wild west of WoT 360 competitions. Its all open and allowing us free run to set up our own competitions is a blessing. I think that we should all consider every idea out there. Sure lets go cave man competitions now, but lets keep an eye on the future of not just our clans but the game and our community as a whole.
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Joined: 19th May 2015
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22nd May 2015

Ok I see your viewpoint now, and I agree, down the road we need something more organized. At least until something official from wargaming. That being said, I think some method of weighting tanks and giving teams a points pool to draft in their tanks may be better, and easier for everyone to understand. It may require a one tier spread, I.e. tiers 5-6, 7-8,8-9 etc. Just my two cents. And yes cave man playground brawl for the first ru n should be FUN!
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Joined: 13th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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23rd May 2015

My concern is the problems with Win8. It deals with damage, so the more you play higher tiers ( that are capable of doing more damage in single shot ), the higher your Win8 score will be - people who play lower tiers are penalized, simply because they can't deal as much damage. But Win8 also makes kills a big part of its score, so you can have someone in a Tier 8 nickel and dime a T95 down to next to nothing only to loose the kill to some passerby and Win 8 gives more credit to the person who killed the T95, rather than to the person who did all the work.




Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
http://wotinfo.net/en/sig ... 175211/leoparda/sign

Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
Likes 15
23rd May 2015

But that only means that the stat padder is actually hurting his team and diminishing his actual worth. But again any stat could be used. I just used WN8 as It Is the community standard.

The aim is to set up tiered competitions using virtually any stat that the community would want, along with the unlimited open free for all. Making additional classes to seek titles in. It would not divide anyone, or rank anyone. It would not diminish or take away from the type of school yard rules competition you all are wanting, rather it would add a couple of different ones for the less than purple teams that still want to shoot for a title.

I see a lot of you are getting hung up on insignificant details of my example used to illustrate my idea, rather than just considering the idea itself. The idea is this:

Multiple class competition.
1st class would be exactly what you guys are pushing for. Unlimited unrestricted.

2nd would be structured to within a minimum and maximum value based on a teams complete stat sum based on whatever stat the community would like.

3rd would be the same as above but set at a lower stat value with the maximum ending at the minimum for the class above it. And that trend would continue for as many classes as the league would like.

The only ranking would be for the team playing the match. Individual players stats only count towards the participating teams total and would not rank any individual player into a class (as there are no individual player classes).
Last Edit: 23rd May 2015 by dennis420b
Joined: 13th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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23rd May 2015

< shrug >

Personally, I don't see the need to structure the teams at this time. If teams need to be structured, leave it to the individual clans to determine who is on which team - especially given that what we do here doesn't have any kind of official standing.

As for Win8 being the community standard, I submit that given that it doesn't have much in the way of competition, it doesn't mean much and there isn't a whole lot to encourage finding a better method of measuring game skill.




Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
http://wotinfo.net/en/sig ... 175211/leoparda/sign

Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
Likes 15
23rd May 2015

Who said anything about clans not being able to structure their teams? The clan builds the team according to what ever class the clan would want that team to play in.
Joined: 13th May 2015
Rank: Veteran Gaming Clan
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24th May 2015

Then what is wrong with isf13's suggestion (you and 6 of your friends against me and 6 of my friends - regardless of Win8 stats)?





Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
http://wotinfo.net/en/sig ... 175211/leoparda/sign

Joined: 29th Jan 2015
Rank: Team In Transition
Likes 15
24th May 2015

Nothing. Who said there was anything wrong with that? I simply said that you might catch more clans attentions if they thought there was multiple classes to fight for rather than just the same one that will be dominated by the same couple of clans .  Its just an idea.

THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION BEING SET UP, RATHER A CONCEPT FOR FUTURE LARGE SCALE CLAN INVOLVING MULTI-CLASS COMPETITIONS.

If the only thing you want to do is pick it apart just move on. There is no reason to bring arrogant WoT Forum attitudes here. 
Joined: 14th Aug 2014
Rank: Armored Rebellion
Likes 13
24th May 2015

You are the one getting angry when the majority of us are saying it's not needed. Your idea didn't go over well in my opinion, so don't get mad at people for disagreeing with you.


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